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 Заголовок сообщения: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS
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https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/7H3uz49DDu8

As for how Standards Team members are chosen, I will comment that the
Forth83 group, as well as the Forth79 group, were basically composed of
whoever showed up, and everyone got a vote regardless of background or
affiliation. Forth79 was developed in one long weekend on Catalina
Island, and Forth83 was the result of two meetings about 6 months apart,
both in California. The last draft was subject to a single up-or-down
vote, with no opportunity for further consideration or revision.

In addition to the issues we've discussed, I'll give one more example of
the way that group worked: At the first meeting, it was agreed that we
should standardize what ' returned and EXECUTE used. It was agreed that
this should be the address of the Parameter Field of the definition.
FORTH, Inc. promptly implemented this in our new product line,
polyFORTH, which attempted to track the standard as much as possible.
But the next meeting decided, no, it should be the address of the Code
Field. By this time, it was not really feasible for FORTH, Inc. to make
so profound a change, so we didn't (although we did adopt as many
less-profound changes as we could). Some other widely-used systems went
one way, some another. The attempt to standardize this failed. Forth 94
correctly decided not to specify implementation at that level of detail,
and introduced the notion of an xt, which is an opaque object with rules
of usage.

The ANS Forth effort, in contrast, was developed over 6 years of 4
multi-day meetings/year, each in a different part of the US (and two in
Canada), with strict rules from ANSI governing membership and
representation as well as operation. An organization (such as Forth
vendors, user organizations, or groups like FIG) could have one member
and one alternate, but only one vote. Prospective members had to attend
two consecutive meeting before achieving voting status. Typically, we
had 12-14 current voting members. Towards the end, Release Candidate
drafts had to be published and subjected to a 4-month public review
process. All comments had to be responded to by the TC, and if there
were *any* technical changes as a result of comments another 4-month
review was required.

Meetings operated in a two-level process: there was a Technical
Subcommittee (called the TSC), chaired by Greg Bailey, which thrashed
out all the technical details of proposals. This group was composed of
both official TC members and anyone else who chose to attend. As we met
in diverse geographical areas, we always publicized our meetings and
welcomed all Forth users. We typically ended up with 6-10 non-TC members
in addition to the official members. In this way, we got technical input
from very diverse sources. When the TSC achieved consensus on an issue,
they brought it to the formal TC, which I chaired, with a recommendation
for passage or rejection. This group could pass a proposal (in which
case it went into the next draft), reject it, or refer it back to the
TSC for further work. All decisions with more than 3 dissenting votes
were referred back to the TSC.

As a result of this lengthy process, ANS Forth was thoroughly vetted
both by the TC members and the rest of the Forth community. There were
no casual decisions that were made at the last minute without review,
new technology (e.g. CATCH/THROW) was tested thoroughly by multiple
implementers and users, and all points of view were represented.

Quite a different process. And the result, though far from perfect, was
much sounder.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

--
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS
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My Straight Forth is going to be completely different from ANS-Forth and Forth-200x.

Цитата:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/7H3uz49DDu8

The ANS Forth effort, in contrast, was developed over 6 years of 4
multi-day meetings/year, each in a different part of the US (and two in
Canada), with strict rules from ANSI governing membership and
representation as well as operation. An organization (such as Forth
vendors, user organizations, or groups like FIG) could have one member
and one alternate, but only one vote. Prospective members had to attend
two consecutive meeting before achieving voting status. Typically, we
had 12-14 current voting members. Towards the end, Release Candidate
drafts had to be published and subjected to a 4-month public review
process. All comments had to be responded to by the TC, and if there
were *any* technical changes as a result of comments another 4-month
review was required.

A big problem with Forth-200x is that all of the Forth-200x committee members were appointed by Elizabeth Rather, and all of them have financial ties to Forth Inc..

We have Andrew Haley who was an employee of Forth Inc. and who routinely parrots Elizabeth Rather's opinion that code-libraries are bad and that all new programs have to be written by cut-and-paste of code from old programs.

We have Peter Knaggs who is a current employee of Stephen Pelc at MPE, who is also on the committee. Stephen Pelc and Elizabeth Rather have both bragged about how Forth Inc. and MPE do "joint projects" together.

As a practical matter, Forth-200x is purely a Forth Inc. project.

I don't want Straight Forth to be purely my own project --- I want to get consensus from Forth programmers on the design --- I don't want to impose my own design on everybody on the assumption that I know more than everybody else and everybody should follow me obediently.

Цитата:
Meetings operated in a two-level process: there was a Technical
Subcommittee (called the TSC), chaired by Greg Bailey, which thrashed
out all the technical details of proposals. This group was composed of
both official TC members and anyone else who chose to attend. As we met
in diverse geographical areas, we always publicized our meetings and
welcomed all Forth users. We typically ended up with 6-10 non-TC members
in addition to the official members. In this way, we got technical input
from very diverse sources. When the TSC achieved consensus on an issue,
they brought it to the formal TC, which I chaired, with a recommendation
for passage or rejection. This group could pass a proposal (in which
case it went into the next draft), reject it, or refer it back to the
TSC for further work. All decisions with more than 3 dissenting votes
were referred back to the TSC.

Elizabeth Rather is a "name dropper." If this term doesn't translate into Russian, I'll explain --- a name-dropper is somebody who brags about being acquainted with famous people who have great accomplishments, but the name-dropper has no accomplishments --- as an example, on comp.lang.forth Elizabeth Rather has claimed to be friends with multiple Noble Peace Prize winners. She has made a career out of bragging that Charles Moore was her friend in the 1970s --- I have noticed however, that Charles Moore has never bragged that she was his friend --- he ignores her.

In the early 1990s, the best Forth system was UR/Forth from Laboratory MicroSystems Inc. (owned by Ray Duncan). By comparison, PolyForth was a toy Forth system that was of lower quality than many public-domain Forths. In 1993, Ray Duncan was on comp.lang.forth saying that the ANS-Forth design was "brain-damaged." His name was listed on the ANS-Forth document as a contributor however.

There is no evidence that Charles Moore supported ANS-Forth or was in agreement with any part of the ANS-Forth design. His name listed on the ANS-Forth document as a contributor however. The only reason why ANSI certified ANS-Forth as the official standard for Forth, was because Charles Moore's name was listed on the document as a supporter --- nobody at ANSI knows anything about Forth --- all they know is that Forth was invented by Charles Moore, so when they saw his name on the document, they certified it.

Forth-200x is the same as ANS-Forth. I have been steadfastly opposed to the Forth-200x quotations that fail to provide the quotation with access to the parent function's local variables. I got kicked off the Forth-200x mailing list. I wrote code that works under VFX and SwiftForth that provides quotations with access to the parent function's local variables. Despite all of this, Forth-200x continues to say that it is impossible for quotations to provide access to the parent function's local variables, and until recently they listed my name as a contributor --- I had to threaten to hit them with a libel lawsuit if they continued to list my name as a contributor, so they removed my name from their list of contributors --- they may yet list my name on their document as a contributor though, and I doubt that I can legally prevent them from doing this.

Many people (including Ilya Tarasov) are on the Forth-200x mailing list. This is a very bad idea. The Forth-200x committee do what Forth Inc. tells them to do --- they do not listen to anybody else's opinion --- the only reason why they have a mailing list is so they can collect names of Forth programmers so they can list these people as Forth-200x supporters in their document, even if the people do not support Forth-200x.

I am not going to be a name-dropper. I will allow Forth programmers to contribute to Straight Forth, but I am not going to list their names as contributors unless they ask me to do so.

Цитата:
As a result of this lengthy process, ANS Forth was thoroughly vetted
both by the TC members and the rest of the Forth community. There were
no casual decisions that were made at the last minute without review,
new technology (e.g. CATCH/THROW) was tested thoroughly by multiple
implementers and users, and all points of view were represented.

Quite a different process. And the result, though far from perfect, was
much sounder.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

In 1994/1995 I was employed at Testra as a Forth programmer. I wrote MFX in UR/Forth. This was the assembler/compiler/simulator for the MiniForth processor (now called the RACE processor).
http://www.testra.com/Forth/RACE.htm
The MiniForth processor was built on a Lattice isp1048 PLD and it was used in motion-control boards primarily for a laser etcher --- it provided better speed and lower cost than the competitor's MC68000 systems. My Forth compiler worked! Note that the "Forth community" that Elizabeth Rather claims supported ANS-Forth did not include anybody from Testra --- her definition of "Forth community" is: "everybody who agrees that she is their leader."

In 1994, the ANS-Forth compiler became the Standard for the Forth community. No ANS-Forth compiler had been written however, so ANS-Forth became the Standard without being tested. The first ANS-Forth compiler written was SwiftForth which came out in 1997. SwiftForth had so many bugs that it was unusable. Version-2 of SwiftForth (which I paid over $400 for) had serious bugs --- for example, any use of (LOCAL) would crash the system, ALIGN and ALIGNED were no-operations, etc..

If ANS-Forth had been tested, some of the gross mistakes would have been noticed --- for example, LOCALS| has the parameters in backwards order --- this kind of obvious mistake should have been noticed and corrected before the document was shipped to ANSI to get its rubber-stamp.

Straight Forth is going to have a compiler that can be tested --- I am not going to declare Straight Forth to be a Standard until it is tested --- I would expect professional quality programs to be written in Straight Forth before I declare it to be the Standard.

Note that the Forth-200x committee have been declaring Forth-200x to be the new Standard from the first day --- over a decade has passed and Forth-200x continues to grow, becoming increasingly complex --- the committee has declared that it is the new Standard throughout the entire duration.


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS
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как перевести на английский: "кто кормит девушку - тот ее и танцует"?

_________________
Мне бы только мой крошечный вклад внести,
За короткую жизнь сплести
Хотя бы ниточку шёлка.
fleur


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS
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mOleg писал(а):
как перевести на английский: "кто кормит девушку - тот ее и танцует"?

К слову, пытаюсь вспомнить, кого хоть раз "накормил" комитет. Хех, на Европу давно пора форт-эмбарго наложить :)


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS
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Цитата:
К слову, пытаюсь вспомнить, кого хоть раз "накормил" комитет.

Себя: в том или ином смысле. Судя по описанию ситуации HughAguilar-ом.

_________________
Мне бы только мой крошечный вклад внести,
За короткую жизнь сплести
Хотя бы ниточку шёлка.
fleur


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS
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mOleg писал(а):
Цитата:
К слову, пытаюсь вспомнить, кого хоть раз "накормил" комитет.

Себя: в том или ином смысле. Судя по описанию ситуации HughAguilar-ом.

I don't know what you guys are talking about. What does "fed" mean?

What does your proverb about feeding the dancing girl mean?

Google Translate turns proverbs and metaphors into nonsense. :|


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What does your proverb about feeding the dancing girl mean?

It is a well-known joke. A man invites girl to dance while she is in restaurant with another man. Her boyfriend (rich and mature enough) answers "who fed a girl, will dance her". Grammatically, phrase built with an allusion to insert "to have a sex with" instead of "dance". I'm not sure why Oleg point to it, but this othen used like "pay before tell us what to do".


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Цитата:
I'm not sure why Oleg point to it

Гм, тогда иначе:
"кто платит, тот и заказывает музыку".
Не всегда люди, а тем более группы людей поступают рационально, увы.
Собственно, мне до сих пор не понятно, почему вообще случился этот самый стандарт.

Цитата:
К слову, пытаюсь вспомнить, кого хоть раз "накормил" комитет.

Наоборот:
Вопрос в том, кто кормил комитет?

_________________
Мне бы только мой крошечный вклад внести,
За короткую жизнь сплести
Хотя бы ниточку шёлка.
fleur


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mOleg писал(а):
Собственно, мне до сих пор не понятно, почему вообще случился этот самый стандарт.

Кто то выступил с инициативой, а кто то это одобрил и закрутилось :)

P.S. Типа из серии Forth Haiku и GL XT16 - Karsten Schmidt, Low fat computing и может появиттся, что то типа ForthGL :) Сколько уже подобных проектов?


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS
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Цитата:
I'm not sure why Oleg point to it

Гм, тогда иначе:
"кто платит, тот и заказывает музыку".

This is a good proverb --- it translates directly into an English proverb.

I am offended that the ANS-Forth committee declared themselves to be the leaders of the Forth community, and declared Forth programmers such as myself to be their followers.

In 1994 they released ANS-Forth and it had never been tested. There was no reference compile. There were major bugs, such as the parameters in LOCALS| being backwards, as well as a lot of ambiguities. The ambiguities were the result of political concessions. Two committee members had contradictory Forth systems and each demands that their Forth system will be ANS-Forth compliant, so Elizabeth Rather says: "Fine! You are both ANS-Forth compliant!" There was no ANS-Forth compiler written until 1997, which was SwiftForth, and it was too bug-ridden to be usable --- it wasn't until version-3 that the major bugs got removed (for example: (LOCAL) would crash SwiftForth when it was used).

By comparison, in 1994/1995 I wrote MFX at Testra for their MiniForth processor. This was used to compile their motion-control program. The MiniForth system was faster than the competitor's MC68000 system, and less expensive (the MiniForth was built on a Lattice isp1048 PLD and an 8032 for support). MFX continues to be used today (the MiniForth has been upgraded to an FPGA and the name changed to RACE, but MFX still works for it).

So, please explain to me why I'm supposed to be the obedient follower and Elizabeth Rather is supposed to be the great leader. I write Forth code that works --- she is a salesperson --- WTF???

mOleg писал(а):
Не всегда люди, а тем более группы людей поступают рационально, увы.
Собственно, мне до сих пор не понятно, почему вообще случился этот самый стандарт.

I know exactly why it happened! The world is full of people who want to be followers. They just look for some big leader, and they become the big leader's followers.

Elizabeth Rather has surrounded herself with sycophants. Very few of them are capable of programming in Forth. Mostly, they just enjoy declaring themselves to be big experts on the internet, and they attack people such as myself who do program in Forth.

In this thread you can read one of Elizabeth Rather's sycophants making a death threat against me:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... 2KNs8p4J6Y
This is the death threat:
On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:46:15 AM UTC-7, Julian Fondren wrote:
> The only thing Hugh has added to clf in his entire time here is an
> awareness that CREATE ... DOES> with constant data is less optimal
> than could be. Possibly some people have also benefited by having
> been encouraged to get real Usenet clients or subscriptions--so as to
> avoid him. All of his other contributions have been negative. We are
> actually stupider because of him--people have stopped coming by, that
> brightened things up; people who know better don't bother voicing
> response #1929 to the same iterated complaint from Hugh that was
> stupid and baseless the first time it provoked a response.
>
> And of course, instead of Forth discussion, you get the occasional
> admissions like mine that moderators can be nice to have, that the
> problems they exhibit shouldn't be solved by doing away with them.
> At one point I would've defended to the death Hugh's right to
> fantasize grossly about people going to hell, as the saying goes, and
> now I would just shrug and say he had it coming were jack-booted
> thugs to black-bag him and remove him from society.

This is why I'm talking to Russians now --- Elizabeth Rather's followers are becoming overly emotional --- hopefully Russians are calmer and less emotional...


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This is why I'm talking to Russians now --- Elizabeth Rather's followers are becoming overly emotional --- hopefully Russians are calmer and less emotional...

We are ready to discuss.. in general :) Of course, there are many peoples everywhere, who are not too calm and searching for a kind of conflict just to show their superiority. I want to provide an ability to discuss Forth problems to anyone who wants it. This does not include pure programming questions, but electronics, production, economics, management, standartization, psychology and other related things too. Rather and her followers are welcomed too.. if they want. But they are definitely not gurus for me :)

A major difference for Russia is a free high education and another approach to it. Many forhters here are engineers/programmers with high education (and scientific degrees). Students learn more theoretical basics than skills as for USA/Europe, and creativity means more than commercial success. So it looks agressive for Russians than someone told 'use my product because I am successful on the market'. This looks like 'you are fool and non-creative and only way for you is to learn how to use our product'. This is just a challenge :)


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I know exactly why it happened! The world is full of people who want to be followers. They just look for some big leader, and they become the big leader's followers.

But them spent his money, time of life and effort for this work.
To criticize is always easier than doing something.

_________________
Мне бы только мой крошечный вклад внести,
За короткую жизнь сплести
Хотя бы ниточку шёлка.
fleur


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mOleg писал(а):
But them spent his money, time of life and effort for this work.

"This is our 10 $, where is our Cadillac?" :)


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HughAguilar писал(а):
as well as a lot of ambiguities. The ambiguities were the result of political concessions.
The ASN Forth standart is written in such style, so it is practically impossible to use it in educational process. A students simply will not understand all those "initiation/execution/interpretation/run-time semantics which can be appended/extended/replaced" and so on. You can understand them only if you are already "in Forth".

>Forth-200x, which is just a great pile of manure that grows bigger every year without any apparent strategy or goal...
:))

E.Rather mentioned there :
>The early efforts at standards (1977, 1978) barely scratched the surface
Hugh, do you have that early standards in any form ? Can I look on them ?
Just to imagine and feel a river of time.
I implemented (just to taste it) a 32 bit versions of Forth-79 and FIG and found a couple of strange places in them and want to compare them to something more earlier. My attempts to find -77 and -78 standards in Internet were unsuccessful.


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